2.1 vs 2.4

[Black99X]

I know there is a lot of stuff on the net about this... But I'm sick of searching.... I'm looking at building the 2.1 or 2.4 out of a 4gcs block. I was going to build the 2.4 but I'm not sure now. As far as I can see the rod/piston setup for the 2.1 is a little more expensive because eagle doesn't make the long rods. What do you guys think? I want the car for the street but I will be going to the track every once in a while. I don't plan on revving to 10k rpms.. my head is stock and will be for a while.... Any opinions... Thanks

[Dstarmotuner]

Slowboy has em built already and has the parts for sale if that helps any.

[derf hwt]

Well if your not gonna rev the hell out of the car then get the 2.4 you get the torque advantage over the 2.1.

[BigT]

2.1 has a good rod/stroke ratio, great for really high revving. 2.4, well just quicker spool and more lower torque.

[Black99X]

I think I'm gonna build the 2.1 and build the head when I get the money! What can the stock valve train rev to?

[BigT]

is this a daily driver? I wouldnt go passed 8k. If you have balls and just race the car at the track, take it up to 8500.

[helite99]

it all depends on your plans for the car. Are you gunna keep the FP green? if so the 2.4 will help spool and give u low end TQ, but as stated above will limit your RPM's.

On the other hand the 2.1 will rev higher, giving u top end power, but it could effect spool and cause lag.

If you havent already, you need to figure out what your plans are for the car, what turbo, DD or track, things of that nature.

[Dstarmotuner]

2.1 can rev to like 10k u most definatley need a built head for that. What about a 2.3l engine just a thought.

[Muggus]

I say you go for the 2.1. Especially if your sticking with the green because the turbo isnt that big really. A 2.4 would give awsome spool for a 50 trim but id say youll probably get better performance out of a 2.1 with upgraded valvetrain revved to 9k.

[Black99X]

I rebuilt the green to a red! I hate lag. The worst is a little lag between shifts... But revving up to 10k could eliminate that. I'm thinking about building it to 9.5:1..... What do you guys think>?

[BigT]

That high of a compression ratio will limit the amount of boost you can run. Especially on pumpgas. Stick with the good 8.5 and boost the piss out of it. A 2.1 should NOT be laggier than a 2.0. If anything, the extra .1 of displacement should help. a little. :lol:

[90goldtsiawd]

I say you wait to hear advice from people with actual experience running these motors? Not just people who've read about em on tuners? This is your fuckin motor we're talkin about, not just a bov or boost guage? Brent(91tsiguy) has alot of experience with the 2.4 motor and MikeL has a 2.3 in his car. I strongly suggest you wait to hear from them before you make up your mind? And I for one, have not heard of many people at all runnin a 2.1? Plus, we all know the fastest DSM's in existence... are all 2.0 BITCH!

[MikeL]

I don't know anyone with a 2.1, but if you are not planning to rev over 9k it seems like a waste of money. 2.0s are still the best motor, cheapest and least problems. I love my 2.3, but for longevity sake I keep the revs low, less than 7500, but since my setup make power at 3500, I still have 4000 useable powerband. Alot of people have trouble keeping flywheels attached to 2.4's, which would be annoying, keep in mind that your tranny is also taking more abuse, I blew up 4th gear in less than 3k once I put the stoker in.

[gtluke]

2.4

[Black99X]

MikeL- You blew a gear in the stock tranny? When I put in the motor it will be put in with a DogBox Tranny! I'm still trying to decide between 2.0, 2.1 and 2.4- The decision is tuff! I'm mostly thinking 2.1 or 2.4! Still need more feedback - Could a 2.4 with a built head and 60trim run into the 10's?? With a 2.1 and same setup it would run faster right?

[puremx69]

Alot of people have trouble keeping flywheels attached to 2.4's, which would be annoying

Really?! I hadn't heard of anything like that any idea what the problem is?

[helite99]

nate has/had a 2.0 in the 10s. 10 flat actully, if he took a shit in the morning it would be in the 9's :wink:

[MikeL]

MikeL- You blew a gear in the stock tranny? When I put in the motor it will be put in with a DogBox Tranny! I'm still trying to decide between 2.0, 2.1 and 2.4- The decision is tuff! I'm mostly thinking 2.1 or 2.4! Still need more feedback - Could a 2.4 with a built head and 60trim run into the 10's?? With a 2.1 and same setup it would run faster right?

Do you mean a real dogbox, or dogbox trans? you realize unless you're using straight cut gears there are no stronger than stock gears. I had a BM trans in my car with a 1g 3/4, but 4th is just weak in our cars, tranny had also had some abuse previously. My point is that more torque will wear on parts. If you have 5k to drop on a real dogbox, then I don't think the cost of the engine is a concern, so just get best stuff you can.

As for the 2.4 and flywheels, the bolts tend to come loose, FP has a kit with an AT spacer, some people bottom tap the crank and use surpa arp bolts, but there appears to be someting with the harmonics.

[puremx69]

As for the 2.4 and flywheels, the bolts tend to come loose, FP has a kit with an AT spacer, some people bottom tap the crank and use surpa arp bolts, but there appears to be someting with the harmonics

So is there anything that can be done or will the flywheel just eventually come off lol? That sounds really dangerous, scattershield or not, not to mention expensive if it comes off and damages shit. What would the AT spacer do? Is there a sure way to fix this problem yet or no? I'm assuming loctite isn't gonna cut it this time lol.

[Black99X]

Nope I'm not talking about the real Dogbox - How long would you say the dogbox race rebuild would last with 500awhp? I would most likely get the FP kit to try and resolve the flywheel problem! Hearing this stuff kind of makes me want to build a 2.0 - I most certainly do not have 5k to drop on a tranny. I'm still unsure of what to buy! I can get the g4cs for $375 shipped- And I have a 6 bolt crank!

[91tsiguy]

Flywheel problems with the 2.4 come mostly from a few different issues

1) The extra vibrations from the 2.4 compared to the 2.0
2) Aluminum flywheels have more of a problem with the bolts backing out than the stock or chromoly flywheels, especially w/the extra vibrations (thus why you get the steel spacer plate in the FP kit)
3) Guys are not realizing they need to put the flywheel alignment pin in these 2.4 cranks since many of them are coming out of auto's.

An early sign of flywheel bolts backing out will be poor shifting with the tranny since the bolts tend to hit the disc, and/or if they all back out at once you'll hear quite a ruckus from your bell housing.


My thoughts....
Drag only car: go with a 2.0 or 2.1
Street only or street/drag: 2.3 and 2.4's are the way to go.

[Muggus]

Nope I'm not talking about the real Dogbox - How long would you say the dogbox race rebuild would last with 500awhp? I would most likely get the FP kit to try and resolve the flywheel problem! Hearing this stuff kind of makes me want to build a 2.0 - I most certainly do not have 5k to drop on a tranny. I'm still unsure of what to buy! I can get the g4cs for $375 shipped- And I have a 6 bolt crank!
I think you might be confused about which dogbox mike was talking about. You said yes a real one, but your not spending 5k. Your probably getting a dogbox racing trans, mike was talking about an actual dogbox trans with straight cut gears.

[Black99X]

No- I said I was not getting the real dogbox! I'm going to build the 2.4 and make sure I get a chromoly flywheel and the spacer kit. I'm going with the act 2600 w/flywheel kit

[Muggus]

Oh my bad, i misread. Sorry, didnt see that not that was in there.

[91tsiguy]

You don't *really* need that FP kit if you're going to go with a chromoly flywheel then. If you really want, I believe there are ARP Supra flywheel bolts that you can go with and tighten the crap out of them. Loctite is a must in either case.

[Black99X]

Should I use a Street Disc or 6 puck? Street is rated up to only 400tq????

[gtluke]

lol nate ran 10.002 on a street disc and a 2600

[91tsiguy]

lol nate ran 10.002 on a street disc and a 2600
No..... It was a 2900 and solid hub 6 puck

[90goldtsiawd]

lol nate ran 10.002 on a street disc and a 2600
No..... It was a 2900 and solid hub 6 puck

And also a GT35R w/ a nice shot of nitrous with all the works. Black99X what are your goals? I doubt your looking for this much power?

[rsk_wannabe]

Is there really a stroker set up for a 2.1? I am using .040" (1.0 mm) over pistons with stock rods and crank and that comes out to 2.1, right?

[Black99X]

I'm looking for anything 500hp and up! But I would take high 400's lol- Anyway if the street disc can only hold up to 400tq then I think I should go with a 6 puck! The car is not driven that often- I'd say around 5-7k a year!

[Black99X]

Maybe I will go with the 2900 w/street disc -

[91tsiguy]

Is there really a stroker set up for a 2.1? I am using .040" (1.0 mm) over pistons with stock rods and crank and that comes out to 2.1, right?

2.4 block, 2.0 crank, custom rods (and pistons?). :wink:

[MikeL]

an 85mm crank in a 2.4 block is actually a de-stroker :)

[Black99X]

Do you guys think I should go with the 2900 w/street disc 0r 2600 w/6 puck>>?????

[MikeL]

I went with a 2900/street disk but I haven't had it to the track yet, it's stiffer than my previous 2600's but other than that it drives fine.

[rsk_wannabe]

an 85mm crank in a 2.4 block is actually a de-stroker :)

That's what I would think... So if you do use a 2.4 block (which I presume is taller than the stock 2.0 block, your compression would decrease even though the displacement increases (all other things being equal). What's the value in that?

What I am I missing?

[helite99]

based on what i see at work, you would need sleeves that fit inside the block to lower the bore. the crank/piston/rod combo will change stroke depending on what combp you use.

[gtluke]

2.4 block plus 2.0 crank needs custom rods. as stated a hundred fucking times in the last few weeks here.
the longer rods fill back up the lost compression, and give you a "long rod" motor. more dwell time = more revs and less detonation.

[shane]

as long as we're on this can we talk about rod to stroke ratio? what is the ideal rod to stroke ratio? i remember doing a little reading on this before, but i was wondering if maybe we can talk about it a little bit and the benifits?

[bergen.DSM]

i also want a 2.4 but after reading alot and seeing that they dont last a long.

im just clueless on what i want now. First thing is tho that i need to get another DSM. then the motor/tranny. but i will be going with something over 2.0.

[helite99]

stupid question, i dont think its been asked yet, or gone over. If so my bad.

A 2.0 bored 20 over, doesnt it make a 2.3?

[90goldtsiawd]

stupid question, i dont think its been asked yet, or gone over. If so my bad.

A 2.0 bored 20 over, doesnt it make a 2.3?

Nope.

[gtluke]

stupid question, i dont think its been asked yet, or gone over. If so my bad.

A 2.0 bored 20 over, doesnt it make a 2.3?

no that turns your 1997cc 2.0 into like a 1999cc 2.0
20 over gives you .01 hp from unshrouding the valves a fraction of a fraction of an inch.

[BigT]

based on what i see at work, you would need sleeves that fit inside the block to lower the bore. the crank/piston/rod combo will change stroke depending on what combp you use.


our cars dont have huge diesel engines in them. A 2.1L has nothing to do with "de-boring" the cylinder. :lol:

[rsk_wannabe]

You do the math....


http://www.straightliners.co.uk/calcs/eng-disp-calc.htm


I believe stock bore on 2.0 litre 4g63 is 85mm and stroke is 88mm, so start fiddling around with numbers and find your new volume.

[Utah Joe]

If you want a G4CS (2.4L) be prepared to spend hours on the phone calling junkyards unless you know someone who has one. If you can find them, they are normally cheap. Most times though, the old hyundai's are just crushed.

[Black99X]

I actually found a few after calling a lot of junk yards! Best price I found is $375 shipped to a shop! Don't have a shop though.

[Nate Crisman]

If the car is a street car, and you aren't an EXPERT dragrace driver...stay with an act street disk.

the 6 puck disk (behind either 2600 or 2900pp) is seriously an on/off switch. the engagement distance on the pedal is damn near nothing. There is damn near no slipping it. I went from running consistent mid to low 1.5's with teh 2600/street disk to running 1.6, 1.5, 1.8, 2.0, 2.2 short times with the 2900/6puck. An Im exteremly experienced with this car (like 300+ passes since Iv owned it).

putting the street disk behind a 2600pp gives about 450ft-lb of torque capacity
the 2900pp upps the torque capacity to just under 500ft-lb.
the 2600/6puck is something like 520ft-lb
2900/6puck is in the low 600's

and remember, to make 450ft-lb your going to be running a fairly big turbo and not making equal tq/hp. most dsms will be making way over 550hp before seeing 450ftlb.

I honestly think you guys are getting way ahead of yourselvs with the clutch talk. put a 2600/street disk in there untill you ACTUALLY MAKE 450ft/lb and then deal with the clutch issue. The stronger clutch doesn't do you any good if you can't drive it worth a shit. (hence my 10.0's with mid 9 mph!) :( :(

[blcknspo0ln]

corey,
I thought you'd like to see this.. cut and pasted from DSMtuners..

I just yanked a G4CS out of a 1989 Sonata a few days ago and thought I'd post a thread with some tips for those who are going to try and do the same.

First of all, the G4CS is located in the engine bay of the 1989-1991 Hyundai Sonata and was the only four-cylinder available in the chassis. There was apparently a six-cylinder option, but I have never come across one. This is what the car you are looking for looks like.

Many junkyard veterans will tell you that you should take certain tools with you to the yard. Here's a list of what I brought and what I should have brought with me to extract the short-block.

1. Socket set 8-22mm. Most where 10-14mm, but a few where 17mm, and if you need to take apart parts of the suspension to remove the transmission, you will need several of the larger socket sizes.
2. Wrenches of the same sizes and a 'universal,' adjustable one.
3. Hammer. A five pound one will do.
4. 'Cheater pipe'. Any piece of pipe that will fit over the end of a wrench will do.
5. Screwdriver. Both Philips and flathead.
6. Pry bar. For prying of course.
7. Liquid Wrench for those stubborn, rusted bolts.
8. Hex socket, size 10mm. This is what you will need to remove the head-bolts.
9. Knife for cutting miscellaneous wires, hoses, etc. A hacksaw would be good to, but it isn't as maneuverable in the engine bay.
10. Creepers are nice, the back seat of a Volvo is better.
11. Two friends, preferably of the sasquatch breed. One will do, but why not make a day of it. Enjoy yourselves.
12. Some sort of way to extract the engine from the bay. Whether you are going to lower it or raise it, straps are great. You can cut the seatbelts out of a car if you forget them. See 11.
13. Remember, it is junkyard etiquette to put the parts you removed from the car in the trunk so that someone can find them if they need to.

Step 1. Locate the car. You may have to go to or call several places. Most don't know exactly what cars they have, some do and won't let you into their lot (they pull it). The 'you-pull-it' places are great and you can walk through it like an art gallery. Once you have located the car, you should be prepared to pull it. I've seen an engine disappear rather quickly, so be prepared to take it if you get the chance.

Step 2. Take off the exhaust system. Most junkyards will have cut off the catalytic converter making the removal of the exhaust system easier than separating the header from the system and removing it with the head. The remaining system will be suspended by a hanger and the bolts in the head. Removing the radiator fan, heat shield and oil dipstick tube bracket helps with the removal of the exhaust system as well.

Step 3. Remove the passenger side engine mount.

Step 4. Remove power steering pump, A/C compressor, alternator and brackets. You can do this after you pull the engine, but stripping the engine down while it’s still in its bay is easy and makes removal that much easier. Also take off the timing belt cover. Cut the belts including the timing belt to make things go more quickly.

Step 5. Disconnect the intake manifold from the chassis. Leave it attached to the head, but everything attached to it like the fuel rail, wiring harness, intake pipe, etc. should be removed. The throttle body can stay.

Step 6. Remove the head. Take the valve cover off and remove the hex bolts that hold the head to the block. At this point the head/intake manifold should lift right off.

Step 7. Detach the transmission. It may be easier, depending on a few factors, to remove the CV joints, detach the remaining mounts and lower the transmission and engine then separate them. We ran into a little trouble when the torque converter (automatic transmission) wouldn’t allow an easy separation from the engine. If this is the case, separating the converter from the engine should allow the engine to be lifted out after disconnecting the transmission mount, remaining engine mounts and pulling them apart.

Step 8. Lift or lower your engine into a cart or wheelbarrow. It’s kind of awkward and weighs quite a bit. Remove any remaining things you don’t need at this point.

I'll attach a picture of the engine bay.

Hope this helps.

Should I post this in the tech articles section?


.. here's the original link:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208730

[Black99X]

Thanks Tomie.... My name is spelt Cory! lol I will not be pulling the motor because no junk yard around here have any! I found a list of about 50 yards or so- Called every one... and they all said nope no hyundai. I did find a bunch in NY and PA so I will be having it shipped.

[blcknspo0ln]

Thanks Tomie.... My name is spelt Cory! lol I will not be pulling the motor because no junk yard around here have any! I found a list of about 50 yards or so- Called every one... and they all said nope no hyundai. I did find a bunch in NY and PA so I will be having it shipped.

it's tommy .. fag :roll: haha :lol:

did you try the salvage yard in sayreville? I went there and they had a shitload of different cars

[gtluke]

i've been meaning to make a post about my "dsm tool kit"
i have a small bag of tools i keep in my galant that i can just about dismantle the entire car with. its about the size of a lunch bag and contains everything you need to do any job on a dsm. many years of being a dsm mechanic has taught me that you don't need jack shit for tools to have every tool you need to work on a dsm.

[billios996]

You do the math....


http://www.straightliners.co.uk/calcs/eng-disp-calc.htm


I believe stock bore on 2.0 litre 4g63 is 85mm and stroke is 88mm, so start fiddling around with numbers and find your new volume.


This is an innacurate calcultor. It doesn't take into account the HG height, piston dish, or the cyl head combustion chamber volume. This is only a basic stroke (cylinder) volume calculator,
pi*r^2*h (cylinder volume), aka
pi*(bore/2)^2*stroke.
you also need to add the volume occupied by the HG,
pi*(bore/2)^2*HG_height, +
piston dish (value from the manuf) + CC volume.

To get the compression ratio, you divide
(full cyl volume) / (full cyl volume - stroke vol + piston dish vol)

Bill

[MikeL]

i've been meaning to make a post about my "dsm tool kit"
i have a small bag of tools i keep in my galant that i can just about dismantle the entire car with. its about the size of a lunch bag and contains everything you need to do any job on a dsm. many years of being a dsm mechanic has taught me that you don't need jack shit for tools to have every tool you need to work on a dsm.

I usually always have a 10, 12, 14, pliers, vice grip, short extension, 4 way screw driver, and some random bolts, I tend to keep my gear wrenches in the car as well, thats enough to fix anything that would acutally get you home. Throw in a few rags, and I always have 1 gal coolant/water mix and 2+ qts of oil, kinda sad isn't it..

[gtluke]

yup mike thats about what i have. i keep 2 vice grips though incase of a collant line rupture.
the kit came in handy last week when my TB coolant line exploded in newark. i just used a piece of hose (i keep a 3ft length of that size line in the truck and 4 clamps on it) and repaired it in like 5 minutes using the gallon of coolant back there too :)

[Black99X]

Stock valve size vs 1mm over? I was looking at the sbr stage 5 head and it comes with stock size valves. They told me unless the cars is a 35lbs boost track car that the 1mm oversize will lose power?????

[gtluke]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

[gvr4737]

i have my standard tool box in the back of my dsm and another box i like to call " ohh shit its a dsm" box... basically has everything u could think of to rig the car to make it home in case of emergency

[Black99X]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

So your saying stay with my stock 2g head????? Does everyone agree?

[1gnasty]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

So your saying stay with my stock 2g head????? Does everyone agree?

i good build head will take away some low end
but will shine up top

ps stock dsm valves suck

[MikeL]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

So your saying stay with my stock 2g head????? Does everyone agree?

I did, I only port matched it to a 1g intake.

[MikeL]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

So your saying stay with my stock 2g head????? Does everyone agree?

i good build head will take away some low end
but will shine up top

ps stock dsm valves suck

Let me count the ways we could make you look like a complete idiot.. oh wait that's already been done..

[1gnasty]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

So your saying stay with my stock 2g head????? Does everyone agree?

i good build head will take away some low end
but will shine up top

ps stock dsm valves suck

Let me count the ways we could make you look like a complete idiot.. oh wait that's already been done..
??????????????? me 8) :oops: :oops:

[Black99X]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

Shouldn't this say none of us are??? lol

[MikeL]

??????????????? me 8) :oops: :oops:

Yes you.

[1gnasty]

??????????????? me 8) :oops: :oops:

Yes you.
how 8)

[gtluke]

ANY headwork is a SERIOUS waste of money on a DSM.
unless you are running 9's, and none of you are.

Shouldn't this say none of us are??? lol

i think by saying "us" it would suggest that i race a dsm. which i do not.

[Black99X]

:oops: Thought u had a dsm!!!! my bad...

[gtluke]

i have a galant, but i don't race it. its my regular car and i race a mustang.