thank god

[gtluke]

no more MAFT's
ramchargers is out of business.

nate, ryan and i had breakfast once with the guys that bought them :)

[lucassays]

y do you hate the maft so much

[blcknspo0ln]

but venting is cool :lol:

[gtluke]

because its absolutely fucking pointless and all you retards keep buying it.

[91tsiguy]

Mike Licht (I believe is his name) was partial creator of the Maf-T for the DSM's and branched off of Ramchargers to do his own business and continue with the translators and other products.

Looks like he's still a go:
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/

[BigT]

i thought he moved over to fullthrottlespeed a LONG time ago?

[Nate Crisman]

y do you hate the maft so much

for one, the base settings in every MAFT I have tuned was WAY off. The last one I did was in a 2g, in drawthrough with a standard 3" maf. Car had 550 injectors. MAFT base was set for 550's as per the manual. Idle, mid, HI knobs were 0.

I had to use -28% correction on the AFC to get an AF ratio in the high 10's. When set as base for 550's..the car ran somewhere in the 8's for AF. That's uptarted. :evil:


The tuning sucks arse using blowthrough. you can be seeing XXX airflow at part throttle at 0psi and set the correction to get your 14:1 AF ratio. Then you can tip into boost at a lower RPM, get the same airflow at 10psi...and be so fucking lean the car will pop and missfire.
The GM maf sucks a nut for blowthrough, but eVERYONE has to VTA becuase that's coo yo. even though it performes like ass.

I just don't like the thing, especially in blowthrough.

[gtluke]

you mean blowing through a MAF made for a cavalier in draw through is a bad idea? nooooooooo

[Jerry P]

Just wondering what you guys suggest for a car like mine GT40/T350 56 trim running 30-32 psi? I am going full stand alone now but for people who dont want to go that route what else is there? just wondering because i love my dsmlink and hate to leave it, but i have no choice right now. I know you (nate) have tested quite a few things.

[gtluke]

AEM
or a vpc
you can't expect to go fast using a mass air meter. you need a map sensor.

[atc250r]

+1 on the VPC or AEM but I know the AEM is a little pricey for my inexperienced hands to be fiddling with so I run a VPC/SAFC in my GVR4 and drive it almost every day without issues except a little roughness when you are cruising at almost no throttle. Now that the AEM is getting so popular the prices on VPC's have come down a lot. I also am curious to see how the MAFT Pro in speed density mode compares to the VPC.

John

[MikeL]

of course the gm maf setup sucks with an AFC. Funny though because there are a few 9 second cars and at least 10, 10 second cars on the link forums all running 3.5" maf's in blow through. When you CAN log airflow it makes adjusting the curve (which DOES suck) to get close enough to stock make things work, just keep the sensor dry.

[gtluke]

maft pro speed density?
splain

[Muggus]

My afc/vpc has been ok for me. My car is still bucking under boost occasionally but i dont drive it much anymore and its highly untuned. I need to reweld my exhaust before i can start wideband tuning. But overall id recommend the vpc.

[atc250r]

maft pro speed density?
splain

Check it!!

http://www.maftpro.com/

It sounds promising, and Jeff (Keydiver) from DSMChips.com is offering ECU chips to work with it that lock the values of the Baro, IAT, and whatever else you lose when you pluck the MAF out of your car (ie no CEL) plus he is setting it up to alter timing somehow. I use an ECU chip from him designed to work with the VPC and it does the same thing with the locking of values, now I don't need that spaghetti bowl of a VPC/ECU harness and I didn't need to solder resistors to run without that harness either. Check out his post over in the For Sale forum on the GVR4 board, Luke.

John

[gtluke]

hmm looks great.
but time will only tell. having keydiver involved gives me hope.
but when the maft came out i was all over it. i thought it was a great solution. till i actually tried to use one and found out how stupid it is.

[h2osk8er97]

Im slowy starting to hate my MAFT. I have it in blowthrough for quicker spool and mainly bought it as soon as it came out so I can hear my blowoff valve more. Now that I grew out of caring how my car sounds, bought a real bov (TIAL) and really trying to get a decent tune out of the thing, im really starting to despise it. I dont know if its the MAFT or my car but not matter how much fuel I add or take away I can get any timing for shit. My car peaks at 12 degrees of timing and its really killing my topend. Im kinda on a budget for a better tuning solution so Im ruling out DSMLINK atm. Im thinking VPC and AFC? I just need something ASAP because im trying to get an 11 second T28 pump gas run and im sure that if I got the thing in a better state of tune it can happen.

[gtluke]

get a vpc

oh and mike, somehow i missed your post.
but you can go FAST on anything. shit you can just run no MAF and force the computer into speed density map-lookup mode and make it go fast if you feel like it.
but what most of us are looking for is something that performs at throttle positions other than wide open throttle. i mean, the MAF comes up on maxing out and then we lock it down to prevent fuel cut even though air flow is increasing.
seriously, wtf is the point of a MAF sensor at this point?

this is why the pimp guys use a hobbs switch to switch maps on an AFC and not the TPS sensor.

[mike radowski]

Just wondering what you guys suggest for a car like mine GT40/T350 56 trim running 30-32 psi? I am going full stand alone now but for people who dont want to go that route what else is there? just wondering because i love my dsmlink and hate to leave it, but i have no choice right now. I know you (nate) have tested quite a few things.

i run a haltech e6k. its a little dated, but has all of the stuff i need. bean runs the same system on his talon. i picked up the entire system and a used laptop for $700.

[MikeL]

get a vpc

oh and mike, somehow i missed your post.
but you can go FAST on anything. shit you can just run no MAF and force the computer into speed density map-lookup mode and make it go fast if you feel like it.
but what most of us are looking for is something that performs at throttle positions other than wide open throttle. i mean, the MAF comes up on maxing out and then we lock it down to prevent fuel cut even though air flow is increasing.
seriously, wtf is the point of a MAF sensor at this point?

this is why the pimp guys use a hobbs switch to switch maps on an AFC and not the TPS sensor.

My point is DSMlink is the only maf based system that you do not have to clamp the maf signal on, so it can be made to run well and go fast. Yes the maft needs tweaking even with the link, but if you do it right it drives better than a draw through maf setup.

[BigT]

this is why the pimp guys use a hobbs switch to switch maps on an AFC and not the TPS sensor.

hah? Care to explain?

[TheDon7719]

I had a Maf,and did not like it. now I got a AEM EMS
MAP > MAF :lol:

[gtluke]

this is why the pimp guys use a hobbs switch to switch maps on an AFC and not the TPS sensor.

hah? Care to explain?

afc has 2 maps. low and high. to switch between the 2 its setup to reference your tps sensor and at a given value, it switches to high.
you can do the same thing using a hobbs switch (boost sensor/swtich) so at the predetermined level of your hobb's switch, say 4 or 7 psi, the afc switches from the low map to the high map.
requires some creative hookup, but its not overly difficult.
i'm pretty sure tommyP has a writeup on this.

[Big Bald]

You can correct that airflow signal from the maft via DSMLink and a Map Sensor. After that, it was never a problem for me again.

[atc250r]

this is why the pimp guys use a hobbs switch to switch maps on an AFC and not the TPS sensor.

hah? Care to explain?

More Info:

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/foolafc.html

John

[lucassays]

i think alot of the problems witht he maft have to do with people using it as a solution by itself. it should not be used as a one off tuning device. allthough the maft says you can make it compensate for larger injectors it is doing the same thing as a safc is and fooling the computer into seeing less airflow. the problems taht come of this are that the timing is all retarded because the ecu is seeing hardly any air when you compensate for large injectors. i think the maft can be used well for its basic function. replacing the stock maf in our cars. i have an eprom ecu with injector compensation so that my timing will be correct. i have my maft in the car in blow thru simply as a maf converter for my ecu. my maft is setup to function as if i had 450 injectors in the car because my ecu is calibrated via eprom. for adjustments in fuel i use an old style 5 button afc. currently my car is in between upgrades and i will be tuning it once again within the next week. the car however was tuned before and i not only got great gas mileage like 350 a tank on the highway, but my car was extremely fast as well. my point is the maft sucks when you expect too much out of it. common sense says that you cant use it to compensate for huge injectors just the same as you cant use a safc to compenate for huge injectors. if you have the right setup though it will work fine, at least i can say it has for me.

[gtluke]

but if you use it the way you are using it, its utterly pointless. you already had a MAF meter.

[Nate Crisman]

i think alot of the problems witht he maft have to do with people using it as a solution by itself. it should not be used as a one off tuning device. allthough the maft says you can make it compensate for larger injectors it is doing the same thing as a safc is and fooling the computer into seeing less airflow. the problems taht come of this are that the timing is all retarded because the ecu is seeing hardly any air when you compensate for large injectors. i think the maft can be used well for its basic function. replacing the stock maf in our cars. i have an eprom ecu with injector compensation so that my timing will be correct. i have my maft in the car in blow thru simply as a maf converter for my ecu. my maft is setup to function as if i had 450 injectors in the car because my ecu is calibrated via eprom. for adjustments in fuel i use an old style 5 button afc. currently my car is in between upgrades and i will be tuning it once again within the next week. the car however was tuned before and i not only got great gas mileage like 350 a tank on the highway, but my car was extremely fast as well. my point is the maft sucks when you expect too much out of it. common sense says that you cant use it to compensate for huge injectors just the same as you cant use a safc to compenate for huge injectors. if you have the right setup though it will work fine, at least i can say it has for me.

I would question why you need huge injectors and large correction factors in the first place. DSM cars run best with the stock ecu runngin 100% duty cycle. why kids want to put in 750's with the stock ecu and run 70% duty cycle and battle stupid timing maps is beyond me.

if your making 600hp, then put in the 750's if you making 400hp you need 550 injectors.

major cuase of most dsm's running shitty is over injector. you guys buy shit that is way bigger than you need just becuase it's available.

[lucassays]

i think alot of the problems witht he maft have to do with people using it as a solution by itself. it should not be used as a one off tuning device. allthough the maft says you can make it compensate for larger injectors it is doing the same thing as a safc is and fooling the computer into seeing less airflow. the problems taht come of this are that the timing is all retarded because the ecu is seeing hardly any air when you compensate for large injectors. i think the maft can be used well for its basic function. replacing the stock maf in our cars. i have an eprom ecu with injector compensation so that my timing will be correct. i have my maft in the car in blow thru simply as a maf converter for my ecu. my maft is setup to function as if i had 450 injectors in the car because my ecu is calibrated via eprom. for adjustments in fuel i use an old style 5 button afc. currently my car is in between upgrades and i will be tuning it once again within the next week. the car however was tuned before and i not only got great gas mileage like 350 a tank on the highway, but my car was extremely fast as well. my point is the maft sucks when you expect too much out of it. common sense says that you cant use it to compensate for huge injectors just the same as you cant use a safc to compenate for huge injectors. if you have the right setup though it will work fine, at least i can say it has for me.

I would question why you need huge injectors and large correction factors in the first place. DSM cars run best with the stock ecu runngin 100% duty cycle. why kids want to put in 750's with the stock ecu and run 70% duty cycle and battle stupid timing maps is beyond me.

if your making 600hp, then put in the 750's if you making 400hp you need 550 injectors.

major cuase of most dsm's running shitty is over injector. you guys buy shit that is way bigger than you need just becuase it's available.

i had denso 660s and i was overrunning them like crazy. i dont have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator so i got the 720s. i know i could have just got an afpr and raised the fuel pressure to get more out of the 660s but i didnt want to buy one. i also ended up finding the 720s for the same price i sold my 660s for. my car has 9 to 1 compression a agp rs49 a race frontmount a magnus intake manifold and all sorts of other mods. i was always told that i wanted to keep my injector duty cycle at most like 84 or whatever. thats why i bought the larger injectors. the guy i got the injectors off of was running high 11s and low 12s. my car currently should be running similar times judging by the cars that i have raced. this is all on pump gas. i have had no problems tuning my car with regards to too much timing. the injectors havent seemed to be too large at all. i dont believe im one of those people who buy way too much stuff just because its availiable. i have like the bare minimum of things and yet my car is faster than tons of cars with way more stuff. as i stated i dont even have an afpr and my tuning is an old ass safc with 5 buttons and no screen at all. as i stated the car runs great and is both economical and fast as is. hearing that 100 percent duty cycle is good from you is the first time i have heard that. i was always told you want to keep it in the high 80s at most to keep the injectors from overheating and malfunctioning. i believe that was what caused the problems with my 660s due to their high duty cycle over 100 percent. my 720s are rc`s so they most likely flow a little less than that because ive been told they are measured at a higher fuel pressure.

[lucassays]

DSM cars run best with the stock ecu runngin 100% duty cycle. why kids want to put in 750's with the stock ecu and run 70% duty cycle and battle stupid timing maps is beyond me.

my guess is because your telling them to and selling it to them. found this on your own website lol

"We stock the 550, 650, 750, 850, and 950cc sets. Contact us if you are unsure of your needs. If you have a data logger, log your pulse width and RPM. Check your Duty Cycle at higher rpm using the formula (pulse width X RPM)/1,200. You might be surprised to find that your duty-cycle is far past the recommended 85%."

link here http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/fuelparts.shtml

[gtluke]

i blame brent

[Greg97GSX]

i blame brent

lol...luke is in the clear

[Nate Crisman]

DSM cars run best with the stock ecu runngin 100% duty cycle. why kids want to put in 750's with the stock ecu and run 70% duty cycle and battle stupid timing maps is beyond me.

my guess is because your telling them to and selling it to them. found this on your own website lol

"We stock the 550, 650, 750, 850, and 950cc sets. Contact us if you are unsure of your needs. If you have a data logger, log your pulse width and RPM. Check your Duty Cycle at higher rpm using the formula (pulse width X RPM)/1,200. You might be surprised to find that your duty-cycle is far past the recommended 85%."

link here http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/fuelparts.shtml

Ah, that's pretty funny. Well, I have to go take that down off the website. I think I typed that in back in like 2002. It's wrong for stock ecu dsms. For people that have independant control over timing and fuel, big injectors work fine.

Seriosly, I since starting to wideband tune cars on the street, I have sent atleast 4 or 5 guys home without fine tuning becuase thier injectors are too large for thier setup with instructions to sell thier big injectors and buy 550s. The last one was a 2g with 720's and a 50 trim. It was using stock maf and AFC2. It came in with the AFC set in the -10 range on high map. The AF ratio was richer than 9.0 under boost, and it ran "ok" at best. It saw decent timing in the 15-16* range.

I had to run -28 to -32% on the AFC to get the AF ratio back in the high 10's. now it was knocking like a bastard, and getting about 4* of timing up top. It ran like "ok" at best. If not for the knock issue, I would have liked to lean it out in the -45% range to be in the mid 11's for AF on pumpgas.

non adjustable cam sensor, so cant even back down the base timing. If this was a 1g, you could back the base timing down and it would run better at wot BUT then your screwing up all your cruise/idle timing maps by the same amount. not ideal, tha'ts a hack fix.

[mike radowski]

i believe that was what caused the problems with my 660s due to their high duty cycle over 100 percent. my 720s are rc`s so they most likely flow a little less than that because ive been told they are measured at a higher fuel pressure.

FYI, you can not run at over 100% duty cycle. The ecu might call for >100% but the injectors cannot supply more than 100%.

[gtluke]

i blame brent

lol...luke is in the clear

fuck yeah, i ran 12's on 450's